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[Music]

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this

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sprague

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[Music]

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welcome to somewhere in the skies i am

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your host ryan sprague and we have

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a very special guest of the show today

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we're going to be talking to ralph

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blumenthal the new york times writer the

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author

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of the new biography on the life and

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career of john mack

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the believer we're gonna dive into the

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book and everything else that ralph has

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been up to so for the very first time

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ralph thank you for joining me on

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somewhere in the skies a real pleasure

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ryan

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thank you hey i i got the book about um

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i'd say maybe two and a half three weeks

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ago and i could not

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put it down man i thought i knew

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everything about john mack but that

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clearly was not the case so um

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this is gonna be fun thank you thank you

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for saying that well you know before we

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i guess before we get to the book i have

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to ask since this is my first time

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actually being able to

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to interview you um we gotta start with

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the 2017 article i know you're probably

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sick of talking about this at this point

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but um

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the article heard round the world it

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changed

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the entire conversation about ufos in

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the mainstream

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so i'd love maybe if you could just run

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us through your experience with that the

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process

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of the article how it came about uh how

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you felt about the whole thing

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when it finally came out yeah could you

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give us the origin story of the

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article sure absolutely uh so i was

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working on the

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on the john mack book at the time i've

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been working on it for actually for 16

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years

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so um i was working on the book and

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leslie kane

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um my colleague in ufo matters and

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distinguished writer herself and now

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with a series on uh

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afterlife experiences on netflix anyway

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she came to me with a great story

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that she had been at a meeting in

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washington dc um with some pentagon

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people

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and others and there was a secret

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pentagon program to monitor ufos which

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nobody knew about because the government

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was keeping it you know really

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subrosa very secret while pretending of

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course that wasn't really interested in

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ufos

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so this was really exciting leslie came

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to me with a story she was at the

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meeting

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um it was um on the record soon to be on

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the record

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and we went to the new york times um

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through my contacts i'd been at the new

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york times for 45 years

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and i retired in 2009 and started just

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contributing to the times

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but i was not on the regular staff but i

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still had a lot of friends among the

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editors there

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and i pitched them i said this is an

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amazing story

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uh the fact that the pentagon has a

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secret program to monitor ufos

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and the guy in charge of it is quitting

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because he's unhappy

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and um uh and they went for it

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they were all excited um uh

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the important thing is that uh which

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really

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changed the paradigm as you said uh we

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got this all on the record

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um there were no anonymous sources there

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was nothing

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you know secretive about our reporting

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it was all straightforward

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we had the documentation we had the

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letters the letter resignation

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and uh people talked us on the record so

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we really didn't have much trouble

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getting into new york times because i

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was experienced in

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what it took to get a story into the

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paper

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the times not only went for it they put

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it on the front page as you know

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and it did cause quite a stir

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because it was the new york times giving

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credence to this phenomenon which had

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long been in the shadows um

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and um and a lot of things followed from

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that the

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the navy videos came out after that uh

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we got access to actually the first ones

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came out

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with with the story itself in december

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2017

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we had actual navy videos of encounters

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with objects i don't know what they are

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where they come from

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who's behind the wheel nobody's talking

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about that because nobody knows

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but it was the first time uh really

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it took um it established that ufos were

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real

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that they were not figments of

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imagination they were not meta

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metaphysical metaphorical

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you know objects whatever uh which

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people were debating for a long time

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uh now people like you and experts in

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the field know

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that they've had a reality to them for a

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long time

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but but scientists have been hard to

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convince

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uh there have been a lot of skeptics out

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there as you know who kept saying well

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we don't know what they are and are they

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real and if they're real why don't we

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see them land on the white house lawn

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and all that stuff

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um so we were able to show conclusively

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that

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at least our government thinks they're

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real um

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and navy pilots who encountered them

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think they're real

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and um so that was the story of that and

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then since then we've come up with some

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other stories uh

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interviewing the pilots um we got other

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videos

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and uh and that's been the story with

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the new york times

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yeah it's been quite a journey and um i

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definitely i have a listener question

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for you towards the end here

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about one of those follow-up articles

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but um before we get to that

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uh you're right this this completely

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changed i think the landscape

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of this topic when it comes to the the

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public overall like you said us in the

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ufo field you know we've

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we've known ufos exist it's those

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next harder questions like you said what

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are they where do they come from what

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are the motivations what do they

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represent

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and i think that's what our government

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is now you know

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trying to dig and look into just like

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you guys are at the times and

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in civilian journalists and researchers

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as well so um it's exciting yeah well

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they want to know what the technology is

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because right remember first of all if

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another

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adversary nation let's say has this

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technology we're in a lot of trouble now

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it does not appear to be the case

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that anybody has this technology any

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other earthly power

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because if they did we'd be way behind

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so it is a race not only us the russians

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the chinese

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uh trying to figure out what this

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technology is how do we duplicate it

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how do we reverse engineer it um so

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that's

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probably the next step in in the

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reporting that everybody's chasing

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exactly and so i guess ralph the

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sort of the gap we have here you know

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ufos and the government is one thing

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aliens and possible abductions and close

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encounters

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are another and you know i struggle in

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the ufo field every day of

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this one extreme of nuts and bolts

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scientific study of

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ufos and this whole other side of the

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spectrum

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it is a big leap you're absolutely right

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and you'll notice we did not go there in

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the new york times because the

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the level of uh verification uh is not

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there with with aliens and alien

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abduction it was hard enough to get the

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videos the navy videos of encounters

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with these objects

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tic tacs so-called some of them resemble

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giant tic tacs

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um so you know we try to stick very

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closely to the

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to the to the facts what we can verify

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and not in areas of speculation people

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are always asking me to speculate

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well what do you think they are what do

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you think where do you think they come

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from or what do you think and i i don't

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speculate i mean i'm just trying to get

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people to talk on the record and figure

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it out and report what we know

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so there is a big leap and the book of

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course deals with aliens and alien

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abduction

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uh because that's what john mack was

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concerned with he

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if you want to know a little bit about

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as you say the new generation may not be

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up on john mack uh give us an idea of

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who he was if you don't mind and

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i guess how you uh got involved in

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writing all about him

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okay so first of all john mack was a

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harvard psychiatrist very

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esteemed uh he had written a biography

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of lawrence of arabia

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um which won a pulitzer prize um

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you know he went to the movies like

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everybody else to see the movie lawrence

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arabia

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and unlike everybody else he decided i'm

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going to learn about this guy and see

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what makes him tick

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so he studied lawrence went to england

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and tracked down lawrence's family and

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uh you know recreated did a whole

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psychological workup of lawrence of

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arabia t.e lawrence

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and wrote a book that was a masterpiece

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for a surprise so

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he was very highly regarded he was a

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peace activist he

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he met with the assa arafat in um in the

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middle east to try to you know

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establish a peace with the palestinians

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and the israelis

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he protested nuclear weapons he did a

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lot of

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things very well grounded on planet

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earth um

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and then through a series of

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circumstances which i can go into later

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if we have time

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uh he became aware that people were

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reporting

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encounters with alien beings they were

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seeing ufos

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they remembered either under hypnosis or

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even

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often without hypnosis uh recounting

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these strange meetings with alien beings

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who

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captured them captivated them took them

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aboard spaceships for

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bizarre experiments sometimes

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reproduction

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uh related um to create a hybrid race of

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you know hybrid babies crazy stuff i

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mean really

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extraordinary not not grounded in our

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reality

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00:09:59,910 --> 00:09:57,760
as as we can you know understand um

286
00:10:01,990 --> 00:09:59,920
and he was taken by this he was a

287
00:10:04,790 --> 00:10:02,000
psychiatrist so he knew

288
00:10:05,750 --> 00:10:04,800
um when people were making stuff up and

289
00:10:08,230 --> 00:10:05,760
when people were

290
00:10:09,509 --> 00:10:08,240
lying to him and certainly he knew when

291
00:10:13,269 --> 00:10:09,519
people were crazy

292
00:10:16,069 --> 00:10:13,279
uh and he he concluded pretty quickly

293
00:10:18,550 --> 00:10:16,079
that these people were not mentally ill

294
00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:18,560
uh they were uh they came from the broad

295
00:10:23,829 --> 00:10:21,120
cross section of humanity they were even

296
00:10:26,389 --> 00:10:23,839
young children as young as two who told

297
00:10:29,750 --> 00:10:26,399
them flying up to the sky you know with

298
00:10:32,069 --> 00:10:29,760
being taken up by uh alien little men

299
00:10:33,430 --> 00:10:32,079
to their spaceship and you can't say

300
00:10:35,750 --> 00:10:33,440
that these children were

301
00:10:37,670 --> 00:10:35,760
affected by the cultural milieu or

302
00:10:40,870 --> 00:10:37,680
movies or books that they read

303
00:10:42,389 --> 00:10:40,880
um so he was taken by all this some of

304
00:10:44,310 --> 00:10:42,399
these people had

305
00:10:45,590 --> 00:10:44,320
scars on their body they didn't remember

306
00:10:48,870 --> 00:10:45,600
getting um

307
00:10:51,110 --> 00:10:48,880
in life ever uh there were indications

308
00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:51,120
that wherever they saw a ufo landed

309
00:10:56,230 --> 00:10:54,240
sometimes there were physical remnants

310
00:10:58,389 --> 00:10:56,240
the ground was different it measured

311
00:11:00,949 --> 00:10:58,399
somewhat differently on various

312
00:11:04,150 --> 00:11:00,959
you know in various tests grass didn't

313
00:11:07,269 --> 00:11:04,160
grow properly afterwards there anyway

314
00:11:10,389 --> 00:11:07,279
for all these reasons and many others um

315
00:11:12,069 --> 00:11:10,399
he came away believing that what these

316
00:11:13,910 --> 00:11:12,079
people encountered was true

317
00:11:15,190 --> 00:11:13,920
on some level probably these people were

318
00:11:17,990 --> 00:11:15,200
suffering from some

319
00:11:19,750 --> 00:11:18,000
new form of mental illness but in the

320
00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:19,760
past four years i've worked now

321
00:11:23,509 --> 00:11:21,600
with approximately 90 people who've had

322
00:11:25,350 --> 00:11:23,519
these experiences

323
00:11:27,269 --> 00:11:25,360
and they tell a very similar story and

324
00:11:29,829 --> 00:11:27,279
initially at least in the

325
00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:29,839
early years they hadn't been in

326
00:11:33,110 --> 00:11:31,360
communication with each other

327
00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:33,120
they were deeply distressed by their

328
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:34,560
experiences the experiences were

329
00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:36,959
reported in great detail

330
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:39,680
they were complex narratives of being

331
00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:42,000
taken by alien beings into ufos

332
00:11:47,509 --> 00:11:45,040
on beams of light

333
00:11:48,949 --> 00:11:47,519
they they were embarrassed ashamed to

334
00:11:52,389 --> 00:11:48,959
come forward about it

335
00:11:55,269 --> 00:11:52,399
uh and you think these were wild dreams

336
00:11:56,150 --> 00:11:55,279
very solid people healthy mentally

337
00:11:59,430 --> 00:11:56,160
healthy

338
00:12:01,350 --> 00:11:59,440
people and the only thing i knew that

339
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:01,360
behaves like that is real experience

340
00:12:03,910 --> 00:12:03,120
this is not the way dreams behave this

341
00:12:05,430 --> 00:12:03,920
is not the way

342
00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:05,440
mental illness behaves it's not the way

343
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:07,760
fantasy behaves some kind of real

344
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:09,120
experience is occurring to these people

345
00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:11,519
but if this is a real experience that is

346
00:12:15,990 --> 00:12:13,920
some kind of entities beings

347
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:16,000
intelligences are entering our world and

348
00:12:18,629 --> 00:12:16,639
affecting

349
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:18,639
hundreds of thousands perhaps millions

350
00:12:21,509 --> 00:12:20,000
of people according to polls

351
00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:21,519
then this is something really worth

352
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:22,800
looking at so that's what i've been

353
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:24,399
trying to do is get people at least

354
00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:26,079
look at it think about it something

355
00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:27,760
happened to these people he didn't know

356
00:12:30,470 --> 00:12:28,639
what it was

357
00:12:33,509 --> 00:12:30,480
nobody know to this day nobody knows

358
00:12:37,509 --> 00:12:33,519
what it is what the phenomenon entails

359
00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:37,519
but um that doesn't mean

360
00:12:41,829 --> 00:12:39,920
something didn't happen somehow on some

361
00:12:44,870 --> 00:12:41,839
level that we don't understand anyway

362
00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:44,880
so that's john mack and then he wrote

363
00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:47,760
two best-selling books uh he went on

364
00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:48,720
oprah

365
00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:51,440
uh he met with the dalai lama to discuss

366
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:52,000
his

367
00:12:58,230 --> 00:12:55,519
theories he really got around and then

368
00:13:00,230 --> 00:12:58,240
um when he was about to turn 75 years

369
00:13:02,230 --> 00:13:00,240
old he went to london

370
00:13:03,590 --> 00:13:02,240
for a conference on on lawrence of

371
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:03,600
arabia he was

372
00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:08,160
being you know uh lionized for his book

373
00:13:11,910 --> 00:13:10,480
years later and he got run over by a

374
00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:11,920
drunk driver in london you look he

375
00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:12,880
looked the wrong way

376
00:13:16,470 --> 00:13:14,720
and it was not a conspiracy it was not

377
00:13:17,829 --> 00:13:16,480
an assassination a lot of people thought

378
00:13:18,629 --> 00:13:17,839
ah they're getting him out of the way

379
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:18,639
you know

380
00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:21,200
he got bumped off um not true i checked

381
00:13:25,030 --> 00:13:21,680
the

382
00:13:27,110 --> 00:13:25,040
reporting

383
00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:27,120
that's my business you know hard nose

384
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,160
reporting

385
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:30,720
so anyway so that was the trajectory of

386
00:13:35,990 --> 00:13:32,320
his life basically

387
00:13:39,189 --> 00:13:36,000
um and um i was fascinated by

388
00:13:39,910 --> 00:13:39,199
by his story that he that a uh eminent

389
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:39,920
scientist

390
00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:42,800
a physician a psychiatrist would get so

391
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:45,519
taken with this question of aliens

392
00:13:49,990 --> 00:13:48,320
so that was my interest how i you know

393
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:50,000
got into it i mean i picked up one of

394
00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:51,360
the books one day

395
00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:52,959
uh i was the new york times

396
00:13:57,829 --> 00:13:55,120
correspondent in texas

397
00:13:58,150 --> 00:13:57,839
and um and i was reporting on texas and

398
00:14:20,629 --> 00:13:58,160
i

399
00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:20,639
very famous he

400
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:22,959
as i said he'd been on oprah he'd been

401
00:14:26,069 --> 00:14:24,720
written up countless times including by

402
00:14:29,509 --> 00:14:26,079
the new york times

403
00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:29,519
um and i said i gotta call this guy up

404
00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:31,600
and get an interview and just then he

405
00:14:34,629 --> 00:14:32,800
was run over

406
00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:34,639
so that you know that that put an end to

407
00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:36,399
the wall uh

408
00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:39,360
that's how i got into it interesting now

409
00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:40,399
um

410
00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:43,360
so you decide to write this book and you

411
00:14:47,269 --> 00:14:44,079
start digging

412
00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:47,279
into you know his personal files i

413
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:48,720
assume talking to friends

414
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:52,000
colleagues family members um i guess the

415
00:14:56,069 --> 00:14:53,279
big question

416
00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:56,079
as many of us in the ufo field get ralph

417
00:15:00,550 --> 00:14:56,959
is um

418
00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:00,560
how did his family react to him getting

419
00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:01,680
involved in this

420
00:15:05,269 --> 00:15:04,079
uh his colleagues i would imagine that

421
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:05,279
was pretty

422
00:15:11,829 --> 00:15:08,320
interesting um in terms of you know

423
00:15:12,949 --> 00:15:11,839
his responsibilities as a responsible

424
00:15:15,189 --> 00:15:12,959
psychiatrist

425
00:15:17,430 --> 00:15:15,199
also working at harvard and then this

426
00:15:19,509 --> 00:15:17,440
whole other life he was leading in this

427
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:19,519
alien abduction thing so yeah can you

428
00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:21,120
give us a little idea of how he was

429
00:15:24,069 --> 00:15:23,040
perceived by those around him a lot of

430
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:24,079
people couldn't

431
00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:26,240
understand what he was doing i mean his

432
00:15:29,749 --> 00:15:28,240
colleagues at harvard a lot of them who

433
00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:29,759
liked him personally

434
00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:32,720
uh thought he'd done off the deep end um

435
00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:33,839
you know science is

436
00:15:37,509 --> 00:15:36,160
is a conventional science is a pretty

437
00:15:39,990 --> 00:15:37,519
close field and

438
00:15:42,310 --> 00:15:40,000
head people have to they feel they have

439
00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:42,320
to follow a well-trodden path

440
00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:44,560
they can't be too out there you know

441
00:15:49,990 --> 00:15:47,120
science is as closed-minded often

442
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:50,000
as every other field in terms of uh not

443
00:15:52,949 --> 00:15:51,120
being open to

444
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:52,959
to new discoveries remember there were

445
00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:54,240
people who refused to look through

446
00:15:57,590 --> 00:15:56,160
galileo's telescope

447
00:15:59,509 --> 00:15:57,600
you know he invited him he said look

448
00:16:00,949 --> 00:15:59,519
what i'm seeing and now we're not going

449
00:16:02,710 --> 00:16:00,959
to look because you know we don't

450
00:16:03,670 --> 00:16:02,720
believe it well we have that counterpart

451
00:16:07,269 --> 00:16:03,680
today

452
00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:07,279
so um a lot of his colleagues at harvard

453
00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:10,480
thought um he was he'd lost it

454
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:12,800
um but he had quite a few friends also

455
00:16:16,949 --> 00:16:13,519
who

456
00:16:19,509 --> 00:16:16,959
uh respected him as a scholar and

457
00:16:20,550 --> 00:16:19,519
thought he must be on to something his

458
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:20,560
family

459
00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:24,160
um you know also didn't always share his

460
00:16:30,470 --> 00:16:27,600
um enthusiasm for this field his wife

461
00:16:31,189 --> 00:16:30,480
his long-suffering wife sally uh put up

462
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:31,199
with a lot

463
00:16:35,110 --> 00:16:33,600
including max interest in other women

464
00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:35,120
which i go into in the book

465
00:16:42,550 --> 00:16:38,800
he was a pretty freewheeling spirit

466
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:42,560
um loved humanity loved women loved

467
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:45,120
life loved a lot of things and got him

468
00:16:48,389 --> 00:16:45,600
into

469
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:48,399
a bit of trouble with his marriage but

470
00:16:53,590 --> 00:16:50,480
she supported his work because she

471
00:16:55,749 --> 00:16:53,600
she realized he was um he was serious

472
00:16:57,269 --> 00:16:55,759
um but his family couldn't make much of

473
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:57,279
you know what he was doing

474
00:17:00,389 --> 00:16:59,759
so he had battles on a lot of fronts

475
00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:00,399
including

476
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:02,639
particularly with harvard um with

477
00:17:06,870 --> 00:17:04,079
superiors at harvard who thought

478
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:06,880
he was giving harvard a bad name right

479
00:17:10,309 --> 00:17:08,480
and put him under investigation

480
00:17:11,750 --> 00:17:10,319
but i mean as i point out in in the book

481
00:17:14,789 --> 00:17:11,760
the believer

482
00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:14,799
harvard has a long history of um

483
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:16,959
engaging with fringe subjects i mean

484
00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:19,679
william james the father of psychology

485
00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:23,120
was investigating seances and ectoplasm

486
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:25,280
and you know all kinds of weird stuff a

487
00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:26,720
hundred years ago

488
00:17:32,230 --> 00:17:30,320
um now of course we have avi loeb

489
00:17:33,750 --> 00:17:32,240
uh the harvard astronomer who's

490
00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:33,760
reporting on this object

491
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:35,600
uh nobody knows what it is or was it

492
00:17:39,029 --> 00:17:37,520
passed through our solar system

493
00:17:40,789 --> 00:17:39,039
and it might have been a man you know

494
00:17:45,110 --> 00:17:40,799
not man-made but

495
00:17:49,029 --> 00:17:48,630
um harvard's going through it again in a

496
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:49,039
way

497
00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:52,960
but i mean uh um so harvard superiors at

498
00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:54,080
the time were

499
00:17:58,870 --> 00:17:57,120
were quite uh put off with mack's

500
00:18:00,470 --> 00:17:58,880
research and they thought that he was a

501
00:18:02,870 --> 00:18:00,480
little too enthusiastic

502
00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:02,880
which he was he got caught up he was

503
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:04,880
very passionate and the title passion is

504
00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:05,600
in my

505
00:18:13,669 --> 00:18:08,960
in the title of my book um so

506
00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:13,679
um they wanted him to be more um

507
00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:14,400
judicious

508
00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:17,039
somehow more uh distant from his

509
00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:18,720
subjects and that wasn't his style he

510
00:18:23,350 --> 00:18:20,640
threw himself into everything he did

511
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:23,360
and he kind of admitted this um when he

512
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:25,280
was under investigation by harvard

513
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:28,000
but that didn't take away from his his

514
00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:28,880
rigorous

515
00:18:32,710 --> 00:18:31,760
methods he interviewed people uh studied

516
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:32,720
them he

517
00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:34,080
you know tried to see what other

518
00:18:36,630 --> 00:18:35,840
explanations there might be for this he

519
00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:36,640
was not

520
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:39,440
close-minded uh he really was open and

521
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:41,200
he attended a lot of conferences where

522
00:18:44,710 --> 00:18:43,440
these ideas were batted around because

523
00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:44,720
people are always trying to figure out

524
00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:46,480
what the hell is anyway

525
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:48,960
but harvard in the end uh found he was

526
00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:50,320
doing nothing really wrong

527
00:18:55,830 --> 00:18:53,440
he was a little too enthusiastic um but

528
00:18:56,630 --> 00:18:55,840
he was not committing any breaches of

529
00:19:00,870 --> 00:18:56,640
you know

530
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:00,880
rules and they basically exonerated him

531
00:19:04,870 --> 00:19:03,520
and wonderful lawyers defending him he

532
00:19:08,230 --> 00:19:04,880
had danny sheehan

533
00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:08,240
who had investigated the iran contra

534
00:19:11,190 --> 00:19:09,440
scandal in the government he

535
00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:11,200
investigated the ku klux klan he

536
00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:13,440
investigated karen silkwood's story

537
00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:14,400
about how

538
00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:17,440
she was possibly assassinated at her at

539
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:18,880
her nuclear plant

540
00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:21,360
um he was a he was a you know a really

541
00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:23,360
red-hot lawyer and the other lawyer was

542
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:26,480
eric mcleish who investigated the roman

543
00:19:29,510 --> 00:19:27,200
catholic

544
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:29,520
priest scandal he broke that story

545
00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:30,640
basically

546
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:34,080
um you know that was became the movie

547
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:35,120
spotlight

548
00:19:39,510 --> 00:19:37,440
so mack had big lawyers who were very

549
00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:39,520
aggressive and they made harvard

550
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:43,280
you know uh true or trying to prove

551
00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:44,960
charges against mac which they couldn't

552
00:19:48,470 --> 00:19:46,720
do

553
00:19:50,150 --> 00:19:48,480
wow yeah and i know you know there's

554
00:19:51,029 --> 00:19:50,160
even points in the book where you

555
00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:51,039
pointed out

556
00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:53,440
people like like mac's stepmother saying

557
00:19:57,110 --> 00:19:55,440
never run away from a fight and it's

558
00:19:59,110 --> 00:19:57,120
it's small things like that ralph in the

559
00:19:59,430 --> 00:19:59,120
book that really caught my attention

560
00:20:03,190 --> 00:19:59,440
that

561
00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:03,200
give mack this uh this humanity

562
00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:04,799
that we don't have to see you know many

563
00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:07,440
of us see him in these interviews on

564
00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:09,120
oprah or you know the

565
00:20:13,909 --> 00:20:12,640
the famous rua zimbabwe documentary

566
00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:13,919
videos which i'd love to get your

567
00:20:19,270 --> 00:20:16,480
opinion on in a minute here but um

568
00:20:20,789 --> 00:20:19,280
i guess were there any of the actual

569
00:20:22,870 --> 00:20:20,799
abduction stories

570
00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:22,880
in the book that you cover uh that

571
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:24,400
really stood out to you

572
00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:27,360
so one that like you know you just

573
00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:29,120
couldn't wrap your mind around

574
00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:32,320
you know there's so many yeah but

575
00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:35,200
um one of the ones that stands out uh i

576
00:20:38,390 --> 00:20:36,960
mean you can't really talk about mac by

577
00:20:40,789 --> 00:20:38,400
the way without talking about bud

578
00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:40,799
hopkins who was the one

579
00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:42,880
involved and bud was a real pioneer bud

580
00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:44,240
was involved in

581
00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:47,600
alien abduction uh investigation before

582
00:20:52,310 --> 00:20:50,880
john mack he was an artist um who

583
00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:52,320
through a whole series of circumstances

584
00:20:55,110 --> 00:20:54,240
he spotted a ufo once and he got

585
00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:55,120
interested

586
00:20:58,470 --> 00:20:57,200
he taught himself hypnosis which is not

587
00:21:01,110 --> 00:20:58,480
always the best thing

588
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:01,120
for a non-professional anyway he did his

589
00:21:05,669 --> 00:21:02,640
own investigations

590
00:21:07,990 --> 00:21:05,679
and um he came up with

591
00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:08,000
uh some phenomenal stories because he he

592
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:08,960
interviewed people

593
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:10,559
you know coming forward with these

594
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:12,480
abduction stories and

595
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:16,080
um um he by the way

596
00:21:19,270 --> 00:21:18,000
basically invented the concept of

597
00:21:22,789 --> 00:21:19,280
missing time

598
00:21:26,789 --> 00:21:22,799
uh people who uh you know encounter

599
00:21:29,590 --> 00:21:26,799
a ufo uh you know alien beings

600
00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:29,600
and then can account for you know uh two

601
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:31,440
or three hours of missing time they

602
00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:32,720
arrive home late

603
00:21:36,149 --> 00:21:34,240
and they don't know why they were

604
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:36,159
delayed and then later it comes back to

605
00:21:39,909 --> 00:21:37,120
them that they

606
00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:39,919
had all these experiences on a ship and

607
00:21:42,870 --> 00:21:40,320
um

608
00:21:44,870 --> 00:21:42,880
they were subject to experiments and all

609
00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:44,880
so these stories come to them later but

610
00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:46,559
the missing time is common and that and

611
00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:48,240
bud hopkins sort of investigated that

612
00:21:52,149 --> 00:21:48,880
anyway

613
00:21:55,830 --> 00:21:52,159
but bud's most famous case probably

614
00:21:59,430 --> 00:21:55,840
was the linda cortille so-called

615
00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:59,440
case the brooklyn bridge i left

616
00:22:03,909 --> 00:22:01,200
just thinking about the name the

617
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:03,919
brooklyn bridge abduction

618
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:05,760
i know considering you and i both live

619
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:07,039
in new york this case

620
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:09,360
it's just like right yeah it's amazing

621
00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:16,630
that i mean that case has never been

622
00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:17,600
solved

623
00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:20,880
um it's it's a mystery to this day

624
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:24,080
but basically um uh they were

625
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:26,000
supposed they were witnesses we don't

626
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:27,760
know who exactly they were but some have

627
00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:28,640
come forward

628
00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:30,880
who saw a woman being levitated out of

629
00:22:34,149 --> 00:22:33,360
her 11th story window over the brooklyn

630
00:22:36,310 --> 00:22:34,159
bridge

631
00:22:38,230 --> 00:22:36,320
from her apartment and going into a

632
00:22:41,430 --> 00:22:38,240
spaceship being escorted by

633
00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:41,440
three little beings and the people and

634
00:22:44,390 --> 00:22:43,280
traffic came to a stop on the brooklyn

635
00:22:46,149 --> 00:22:44,400
bridge and

636
00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:46,159
i mean there's all kinds of accounts and

637
00:22:51,430 --> 00:22:48,400
and bud wrote a whole book about this

638
00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:51,440
um the problem is there were two people

639
00:22:57,909 --> 00:22:55,120
um two security guards who basically

640
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:57,919
uh told bud the story originally the

641
00:23:01,510 --> 00:22:59,280
original witnesses

642
00:23:02,390 --> 00:23:01,520
and bud could never track them down to

643
00:23:05,110 --> 00:23:02,400
the point where

644
00:23:06,789 --> 00:23:05,120
he knew who they were he he got videos

645
00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:06,799
from them audio tapes

646
00:23:11,029 --> 00:23:09,039
he got letters from them but he was

647
00:23:11,909 --> 00:23:11,039
never able to find out who they were who

648
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:11,919
actually

649
00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:13,840
saw this now later you know different

650
00:23:16,390 --> 00:23:15,360
witnesses have come forward and said

651
00:23:18,710 --> 00:23:16,400
they saw this on

652
00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:18,720
but the case had some holes in it but it

653
00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:21,280
was really the most extraordinary story

654
00:23:25,029 --> 00:23:23,520
you could ever imagine because we who

655
00:23:26,789 --> 00:23:25,039
live in new york know the brooklyn

656
00:23:29,110 --> 00:23:26,799
bridge and we can imagine

657
00:23:30,870 --> 00:23:29,120
you know what it would be like to see uh

658
00:23:33,669 --> 00:23:30,880
someone levitating out of their

659
00:23:35,669 --> 00:23:33,679
you know 11th floor window into the arms

660
00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:35,679
of three aliens into a spaceship that

661
00:23:38,870 --> 00:23:36,480
then

662
00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:38,880
flies over the brooklyn bridge and over

663
00:23:41,110 --> 00:23:40,320
the east river and plunges into the

664
00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:41,120
river

665
00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:43,440
now even for new york ralph that's

666
00:23:48,549 --> 00:23:44,960
that's pretty crazy right

667
00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:48,559
well yeah that case is insane um

668
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:50,240
i mean as you know ryan there's a lot of

669
00:23:55,750 --> 00:23:52,640
stories about underwater craft

670
00:23:57,029 --> 00:23:55,760
and yeah um you know the the ufo

671
00:24:00,070 --> 00:23:57,039
phenomenon

672
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:00,080
um is not limited to the skies

673
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:02,880
there are many accounts including um

674
00:24:07,510 --> 00:24:04,480
navy accounts that we

675
00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:07,520
have reported in the new york times um

676
00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:10,000
of objects going into the water or

677
00:24:15,269 --> 00:24:12,000
coming out of the water

678
00:24:17,029 --> 00:24:15,279
uh and operating in in that medium

679
00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:17,039
you know the water which really blows

680
00:24:20,149 --> 00:24:18,480
your mind you can sort of imagine

681
00:24:20,789 --> 00:24:20,159
something up in the sky you know like a

682
00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:20,799
plane

683
00:24:26,789 --> 00:24:23,840
but operating underwater um

684
00:24:27,269 --> 00:24:26,799
uh you know very very strange so anyway

685
00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:27,279
that's

686
00:24:33,909 --> 00:24:30,720
one of the crazy you know cases that um

687
00:24:36,070 --> 00:24:33,919
that um obsessed mac and and

688
00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:36,080
bud hopkins and and everybody else who's

689
00:24:40,789 --> 00:24:38,000
ever you know looked into it

690
00:24:41,350 --> 00:24:40,799
correct me if i'm wrong uh bud was kind

691
00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:41,360
of

692
00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:45,200
uh max i guess entrance into this whole

693
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,880
topic you know i know they met up in new

694
00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:48,240
york at one point

695
00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:50,000
started corresponding and that kind of

696
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:52,400
got back on the path he led but

697
00:24:56,310 --> 00:24:54,240
ralph i know in the book you kind of

698
00:24:58,549 --> 00:24:56,320
show that just because they

699
00:24:59,350 --> 00:24:58,559
had a similar interest and whatnot they

700
00:25:01,909 --> 00:24:59,360
had very

701
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:01,919
different views on you know a lot of

702
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:03,520
what was going on they butted heads a

703
00:25:07,750 --> 00:25:04,559
lot is that right

704
00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:07,760
it did they did um bud hopkins

705
00:25:12,710 --> 00:25:10,640
and a third member of their group david

706
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:12,720
jacobs who was a professor at temple

707
00:25:16,630 --> 00:25:15,840
university who became a really a noted

708
00:25:19,590 --> 00:25:16,640
historian

709
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:19,600
on ufos he wrote a book in the 70s

710
00:25:23,110 --> 00:25:21,520
called the ufo controversy in america

711
00:25:25,669 --> 00:25:23,120
that became a bestseller

712
00:25:26,310 --> 00:25:25,679
and he really traced the history of ufo

713
00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:26,320
sightings

714
00:25:32,789 --> 00:25:29,600
a real scholar in the field and he also

715
00:25:34,549 --> 00:25:32,799
he was attracted to to the

716
00:25:37,029 --> 00:25:34,559
questions of alien abduction through bud

717
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:37,039
hopkins and ended up

718
00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:41,279
using hypnosis to investigate his own

719
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:43,919
you know cases of people he he attracted

720
00:25:48,870 --> 00:25:46,080
and collected

721
00:25:49,909 --> 00:25:48,880
but um as i point out in the book in the

722
00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:49,919
in the believer

723
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:53,600
um hopkins and jacobs

724
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:57,440
seemed much more uh wedded to the idea

725
00:26:00,789 --> 00:25:59,200
that these were these were real events

726
00:26:04,870 --> 00:26:00,799
that they happened in

727
00:26:08,230 --> 00:26:04,880
a reality that we have to you know uh

728
00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:08,240
you know uh accept a physical reality

729
00:26:13,269 --> 00:26:10,080
they were real events

730
00:26:14,470 --> 00:26:13,279
and mac who started off thinking that

731
00:26:17,029 --> 00:26:14,480
that may be the case

732
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:17,039
more and more began thinking that it

733
00:26:20,710 --> 00:26:18,880
must be happening on some other

734
00:26:22,149 --> 00:26:20,720
dim in some other dimension some other

735
00:26:25,510 --> 00:26:22,159
plane because

736
00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:25,520
um uh it it it's just too

737
00:26:29,110 --> 00:26:27,600
hard to accept that it's happening in

738
00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:29,120
everyday reality

739
00:26:32,390 --> 00:26:31,200
um so they did have a parting of the

740
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:32,400
ways um

741
00:26:38,149 --> 00:26:36,320
they reconciled later before mack died

742
00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:38,159
and mack always respected you know the

743
00:26:42,870 --> 00:26:39,760
research that jacobs and

744
00:26:44,549 --> 00:26:42,880
and hopkins had done um but mac we

745
00:26:45,909 --> 00:26:44,559
became much more spiritual and

746
00:26:47,990 --> 00:26:45,919
philosophical

747
00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:48,000
about it and began thinking well there

748
00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:49,360
are all these other

749
00:26:56,710 --> 00:26:53,760
uh paranormal or anomalous events

750
00:26:58,230 --> 00:26:56,720
um that have to be reconciled with this

751
00:26:59,909 --> 00:26:58,240
and that that actually was mac's big

752
00:27:02,950 --> 00:26:59,919
mistake in the beginning

753
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:02,960
that he focused on you

754
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:06,720
on alien abductions as something uh

755
00:27:15,110 --> 00:27:10,080
you know sing singular let's say

756
00:27:18,149 --> 00:27:15,120
special and um later he began to realize

757
00:27:21,110 --> 00:27:18,159
that it's really only part of a whole

758
00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:21,120
uh spectrum of anomalous experiences

759
00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:23,440
that the old hag syndrome for example

760
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:23,760
and

761
00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:25,120
basically a lot of people in

762
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:27,520
newfoundland according to the research

763
00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:29,919
by david hufford a great scholar of this

764
00:27:35,269 --> 00:27:33,120
field um they would encounter these

765
00:27:36,870 --> 00:27:35,279
evil presences that would come upon them

766
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:36,880
at night and sit on their chest and

767
00:27:41,269 --> 00:27:39,440
strangle them

768
00:27:44,950 --> 00:27:41,279
and it happened to hufford himself the

769
00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:44,960
guy who wrote the book a scientist

770
00:27:49,830 --> 00:27:49,039
crop circles near-death experiences

771
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:49,840
there's a whole

772
00:27:58,549 --> 00:27:54,799
you know uh spectrum of of experiences

773
00:28:01,110 --> 00:27:58,559
that um uh are not

774
00:28:02,230 --> 00:28:01,120
classic alien abduction whitley strieber

775
00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:02,240
for example

776
00:28:07,430 --> 00:28:05,600
uh who really was another pioneer in

777
00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:07,440
this field with his book communion

778
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:10,399
um his experiences don't match the

779
00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:11,840
classic experience they were

780
00:28:16,070 --> 00:28:15,360
totally wild and and um you know sort of

781
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:16,080
a

782
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:49,120
topic

783
00:28:54,149 --> 00:28:52,320
seems to just be so

784
00:28:55,990 --> 00:28:54,159
malleable you know you can look at it

785
00:28:58,710 --> 00:28:56,000
through every lens like you mentioned

786
00:28:59,590 --> 00:28:58,720
spiritually um psychologically

787
00:29:01,510 --> 00:28:59,600
historically

788
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:01,520
um and then you know one of the

789
00:29:04,389 --> 00:29:03,200
historical aspects ralph i wanted to

790
00:29:07,350 --> 00:29:04,399
touch on too

791
00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:07,360
um was that part of your book it was

792
00:29:10,310 --> 00:29:07,760
almost

793
00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:10,320
a kind of an interweaving of two

794
00:29:15,430 --> 00:29:12,080
different stories the story of john

795
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:15,440
mack and then tracing the history of ufo

796
00:29:19,269 --> 00:29:17,120
phenomenon throughout the years

797
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:19,279
and how they kind of intersected so uh

798
00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:20,960
i'd love to get your thoughts on

799
00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:22,960
why did you decide to structure the book

800
00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:24,000
that way

801
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:27,360
yeah i needed to um i mean people

802
00:29:30,950 --> 00:29:29,200
who studied the field like yourself for

803
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:30,960
a long time don't need

804
00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:34,320
to be reminded of uh kenneth arnold

805
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:37,600
in 1947 and how he spotted you know

806
00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:42,320
nine objects over mount rainier um

807
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:45,520
so they're sort of classic stories of

808
00:29:50,389 --> 00:29:49,039
of of ufos of roswell for example what

809
00:29:52,630 --> 00:29:50,399
happened at roswell or some kind of

810
00:29:54,789 --> 00:29:52,640
crash in 1947.

811
00:29:56,789 --> 00:29:54,799
a lot of things happened in 1947 by the

812
00:29:59,909 --> 00:29:56,799
way it's kind of an interesting year

813
00:30:01,669 --> 00:29:59,919
um but um and you know the the

814
00:30:03,669 --> 00:30:01,679
the war years and the post-war years are

815
00:30:06,389 --> 00:30:03,679
very important but anyway i felt i

816
00:30:07,990 --> 00:30:06,399
for people who are not uh conversant

817
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:08,000
with this field

818
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:11,520
um they needed to know some history

819
00:30:15,669 --> 00:30:14,399
and the hard thing was frankly to put in

820
00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:15,679
enough history

821
00:30:19,669 --> 00:30:18,240
so that first of all you didn't want to

822
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:19,679
put in so much history that it would

823
00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:21,120
bore people to death

824
00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:22,480
because you could write a whole book on

825
00:30:28,149 --> 00:30:25,200
you know the origins of the ufo story

826
00:30:28,789 --> 00:30:28,159
um so there had to be just enough of it

827
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:28,799
to

828
00:30:35,830 --> 00:30:32,960
take over the book

829
00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:35,840
and and it was kind of grafted on to the

830
00:30:39,029 --> 00:30:37,679
mac story because mack himself didn't

831
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:39,039
really study

832
00:30:45,029 --> 00:30:42,080
um ufo history uh

833
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:45,039
once he got interested in you know alien

834
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:46,640
research etc i think he

835
00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:49,520
informed himself but he was not a person

836
00:30:53,269 --> 00:30:51,440
who you know got into it after studying

837
00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:53,279
the history he studied some of the

838
00:30:57,509 --> 00:30:54,640
history after he

839
00:30:58,310 --> 00:30:57,519
began looking into it um but i felt it

840
00:31:01,190 --> 00:30:58,320
would it was

841
00:31:01,669 --> 00:31:01,200
it was actually hard to to to blend in

842
00:31:09,269 --> 00:31:01,679
the

843
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:09,279
ufo abduction um you know in new

844
00:31:15,750 --> 00:31:12,559
hampshire in 1965 i believe

845
00:31:17,509 --> 00:31:15,760
um that story i had to go into because

846
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:17,519
that's sort of the lodestar

847
00:31:21,509 --> 00:31:19,840
of alien abduction that's the story that

848
00:31:25,029 --> 00:31:21,519
brought alien abduction

849
00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:25,039
to you know the attention of the world

850
00:31:32,310 --> 00:31:29,760
um through the book and later the movie

851
00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:32,320
so i had to tell that story uh at some

852
00:31:35,509 --> 00:31:33,200
length

853
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:35,519
um so for people who are not familiar

854
00:31:38,470 --> 00:31:37,120
with you know the whole phenomenon i

855
00:31:42,070 --> 00:31:38,480
think they needed to be

856
00:31:44,549 --> 00:31:42,080
told what you know what the origins of

857
00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:44,559
this whole thing are for other people

858
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:46,320
who know the story well it might be a

859
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:47,840
bit of a boy well we know that we know

860
00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:48,320
that

861
00:31:52,070 --> 00:31:51,600
but i wanted to you know position the

862
00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:52,080
book

863
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:54,640
for people who uh who needed to have

864
00:32:03,029 --> 00:32:01,190
what's up guys ryan sprague here and i'm

865
00:32:04,630 --> 00:32:03,039
just dropping in to remind you about our

866
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:04,640
patreon campaign

867
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:06,480
somewhere in the skies is always free to

868
00:32:09,990 --> 00:32:08,640
consume but it's not free to create

869
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:10,000
so if you want to help the show on a

870
00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:12,960
monthly basis we have tons of rewards

871
00:32:15,990 --> 00:32:14,320
for you in return

872
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:16,000
including shout outs on the show and

873
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:18,960
website bonus content and episodes

874
00:32:24,070 --> 00:32:22,000
and free merch want to be my guest or

875
00:32:25,029 --> 00:32:24,080
pick a topic for the show you can do

876
00:32:26,470 --> 00:32:25,039
that too

877
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:26,480
so if you'd like to learn more and to

878
00:32:32,789 --> 00:32:30,000
help support the show visit patreon.com

879
00:32:33,210 --> 00:32:32,799
summerskies thank you and keep looking

880
00:32:36,549 --> 00:32:33,220
up

881
00:32:40,870 --> 00:32:39,350
yeah and i mean it gives us context of

882
00:32:43,029 --> 00:32:40,880
what we're working with again people are

883
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:43,039
going to read your book that have never

884
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:46,320
looked into a ufos or their history

885
00:32:51,669 --> 00:32:49,200
but then the next level of the abduction

886
00:32:54,549 --> 00:32:51,679
phenomenon so i think it does kind of um

887
00:32:55,590 --> 00:32:54,559
it gives the full picture of just how

888
00:32:58,470 --> 00:32:55,600
unbelievably

889
00:32:59,509 --> 00:32:58,480
weird and strange and possibly

890
00:33:02,710 --> 00:32:59,519
interconnected this

891
00:33:05,029 --> 00:33:02,720
all is but um i guess kind of

892
00:33:06,149 --> 00:33:05,039
wrapping up the book ralph um

893
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:06,159
specifically

894
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:07,919
i definitely want people to go read it

895
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:10,080
um without giving too much away

896
00:33:14,549 --> 00:33:12,240
what what do you want people to take

897
00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:14,559
away with the book and sort of the uh

898
00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:16,880
the legacy of john mack you know like i

899
00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:17,840
mentioned earlier

900
00:33:21,350 --> 00:33:20,000
we have these small snippets of him and

901
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:21,360
interviews and everything

902
00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:24,559
so unless you knew him in your life uh

903
00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:26,320
you don't get that full picture of who

904
00:33:32,070 --> 00:33:29,279
this guy was so what legacy do you think

905
00:33:33,269 --> 00:33:32,080
mac really brought that's a really good

906
00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:33,279
question ryan

907
00:33:39,669 --> 00:33:36,720
um well um i think

908
00:33:41,350 --> 00:33:39,679
what i take away from it is a story of

909
00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:41,360
first of all as i say at the end of the

910
00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:43,120
book

911
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:46,960
mack exemplified the best of our

912
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:50,080
species meaning the human race

913
00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:53,440
he was a human being who um

914
00:33:59,909 --> 00:33:56,720
insisted on following clues uh

915
00:34:03,029 --> 00:33:59,919
to a mystery and would not be put off

916
00:34:05,190 --> 00:34:03,039
um in that sense he i call him a hero

917
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:05,200
and i think he went on a hero's journey

918
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:06,640
the classic um

919
00:34:14,550 --> 00:34:10,320
hero's journey of uh initiation

920
00:34:18,149 --> 00:34:14,560
obstacles and uh eventually

921
00:34:20,710 --> 00:34:18,159
and reluctance to shoulder the task

922
00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:20,720
and finally uh some kind of triumph

923
00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:22,240
where he returns with

924
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:24,240
a gift for humanity which is the

925
00:34:28,869 --> 00:34:26,320
knowledge that he acquired

926
00:34:29,909 --> 00:34:28,879
um so in that sense i consider him a

927
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:29,919
hero

928
00:34:43,349 --> 00:34:34,000
he was

929
00:34:45,829 --> 00:34:43,359
uh problems with his marriage he

930
00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:45,839
played around with drugs to enhance his

931
00:34:50,149 --> 00:34:46,720
mind

932
00:34:53,349 --> 00:34:50,159
um he was not perfect but i think he was

933
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:53,359
um a model uh for people who

934
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:56,800
encounter a mystery and are determined

935
00:35:02,950 --> 00:34:57,599
to

936
00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:02,960
obstacles whatever the ramifications the

937
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:04,880
penalties he paid a lot of penalties

938
00:35:09,109 --> 00:35:07,440
he was laughed at he was ridiculed uh he

939
00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:09,119
paid thousands hundreds of thousands of

940
00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:10,960
dollars in legal fees

941
00:35:17,829 --> 00:35:14,000
during the harvard investigation um

942
00:35:20,069 --> 00:35:17,839
but um i think there was something

943
00:35:21,109 --> 00:35:20,079
very much admirable about the way he

944
00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:21,119
went about

945
00:35:25,270 --> 00:35:24,240
uh not turning his back you know on this

946
00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:25,280
mystery

947
00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:29,119
and because it was it subjected him to

948
00:35:33,349 --> 00:35:30,640
the ridicule factor

949
00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:33,359
and it was like the third rail you know

950
00:35:38,710 --> 00:35:35,200
touching the third rail for

951
00:35:41,109 --> 00:35:38,720
a a a distinguished academician to

952
00:35:42,069 --> 00:35:41,119
to take on this field and yet he did it

953
00:35:45,030 --> 00:35:42,079
anyway

954
00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:45,040
um so i think that's what i take away

955
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:45,359
and

956
00:35:54,470 --> 00:35:52,480
you know again i i have very little

957
00:35:55,670 --> 00:35:54,480
patience with the so-called skeptics and

958
00:35:57,510 --> 00:35:55,680
debunkers

959
00:35:59,109 --> 00:35:57,520
who think they have the answer to

960
00:36:00,069 --> 00:35:59,119
everything and they know exactly what

961
00:36:01,910 --> 00:36:00,079
this phenomena

962
00:36:03,349 --> 00:36:01,920
is you know it's mental illness or it's

963
00:36:05,190 --> 00:36:03,359
sleep apnea

964
00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:05,200
and all these things have can be

965
00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:06,480
debunked they have an answer

966
00:36:11,349 --> 00:36:09,760
it's not sleep apnea necessarily because

967
00:36:12,550 --> 00:36:11,359
a lot of it doesn't happen during sleep

968
00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:12,560
people are awake

969
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:14,640
not you know a function that doesn't

970
00:36:17,109 --> 00:36:16,480
come out through hypnosis because people

971
00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:17,119
have

972
00:36:22,550 --> 00:36:20,240
conscious memories of these things um

973
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:22,560
it's not a cultural artifact because

974
00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:23,520
little children

975
00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:26,480
have this you know so you can mack was

976
00:36:30,790 --> 00:36:28,560
very meticulous in knocking down

977
00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:30,800
all these uh straw men that were being

978
00:36:33,990 --> 00:36:32,480
put up by the so-called skeptics who are

979
00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:34,000
not really skeptical because

980
00:36:37,349 --> 00:36:35,520
they don't approach it with an open mind

981
00:36:39,030 --> 00:36:37,359
they're just determined to knock this

982
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:39,040
down so i would say

983
00:36:42,710 --> 00:36:40,320
that if you're going to go into this

984
00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:42,720
field the first thing you owe it

985
00:36:47,349 --> 00:36:45,680
is to devote some time to reading the

986
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:47,359
literature

987
00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:50,640
by experts read the mit conference with

988
00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:52,560
the experts

989
00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:55,280
eminent scientists uh of all walks of

990
00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:56,160
life

991
00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:58,800
all fields debated this subject

992
00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:00,240
seriously at an

993
00:37:04,310 --> 00:37:03,200
academic um in an academic forum like

994
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:04,320
mit

995
00:37:08,230 --> 00:37:07,440
um so at least give it that learn the

996
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:08,240
arguments

997
00:37:11,910 --> 00:37:10,400
and and then you can you know figure out

998
00:37:14,550 --> 00:37:11,920
why you think it's not true

999
00:37:16,230 --> 00:37:14,560
or knock it down but don't go into it as

1000
00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:16,240
you know ignorantly and say ah this is

1001
00:37:20,069 --> 00:37:18,320
nonsense it's crap it's you know

1002
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:20,079
because that's not fair a lot of people

1003
00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:22,160
have devoted a lot of time

1004
00:37:26,390 --> 00:37:24,720
to this phenomenon a lot of expertise it

1005
00:37:28,470 --> 00:37:26,400
is a genuine mystery

1006
00:37:29,829 --> 00:37:28,480
if it was an easy answer someone would

1007
00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:29,839
have found it by now

1008
00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:32,400
but it isn't and and i think that's

1009
00:37:36,390 --> 00:37:34,240
that's what i take away from it

1010
00:37:37,670 --> 00:37:36,400
yeah i like that and you're right you

1011
00:37:40,230 --> 00:37:37,680
know so many

1012
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:40,240
of the people who have looked into this

1013
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:41,520
topic their whole lives

1014
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:44,000
someone like stanton friedman you know

1015
00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:46,480
who passed away just a couple years ago

1016
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:50,160
um left not knowing the answers and we

1017
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:51,760
probably won't get them either but i

1018
00:37:55,829 --> 00:37:53,440
think you're right it's working off

1019
00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:55,839
building off of that and respecting the

1020
00:37:59,349 --> 00:37:57,040
work that came

1021
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:59,359
before that and having an appreciation

1022
00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:00,160
that

1023
00:38:04,470 --> 00:38:02,400
people risked a lot to look into this

1024
00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:04,480
you know when i first got interested

1025
00:38:08,790 --> 00:38:06,960
uh all my friends and family and

1026
00:38:10,630 --> 00:38:08,800
co-workers said don't do this

1027
00:38:11,910 --> 00:38:10,640
like don't get it don't get involved

1028
00:38:14,710 --> 00:38:11,920
with this but hey

1029
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:14,720
i mean again ralph you were a big part

1030
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:15,359
of

1031
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:18,640
that story changing and that acceptance

1032
00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:21,119
changing and now ufos are more

1033
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:22,000
mainstream

1034
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:24,720
than ever and we can start asking those

1035
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:26,880
harder questions

1036
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:29,280
the government is much more open as as

1037
00:38:35,910 --> 00:38:30,160
you know

1038
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:35,920
release a report uh within a few months

1039
00:38:40,150 --> 00:38:36,960
uh if they do that

1040
00:38:43,270 --> 00:38:40,160
in the defense authorization act the uap

1041
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:43,280
task force is supposed to report uh some

1042
00:38:46,390 --> 00:38:45,680
of it'll be public some of it may not be

1043
00:38:48,150 --> 00:38:46,400
um

1044
00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:48,160
so the government has has come a long

1045
00:38:53,349 --> 00:38:50,320
way i think they are genuinely

1046
00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:53,359
puzzled as well as as are we out

1047
00:38:57,670 --> 00:38:56,400
uh out there and um so

1048
00:38:59,030 --> 00:38:57,680
it's good that we're asking these

1049
00:39:00,150 --> 00:38:59,040
questions and it's good that we're

1050
00:39:02,550 --> 00:39:00,160
devoting uh

1051
00:39:04,150 --> 00:39:02,560
you know attention to this and it is

1052
00:39:06,390 --> 00:39:04,160
people like you who've taken the you

1053
00:39:09,190 --> 00:39:06,400
know the risk of

1054
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:09,200
going public with it and studying it who

1055
00:39:13,589 --> 00:39:11,040
really should be commended

1056
00:39:15,109 --> 00:39:13,599
well thank you the same could be said

1057
00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:15,119
for the work you've done and i know we

1058
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:15,680
have

1059
00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:17,680
a lot of appreciation from the listeners

1060
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:20,160
of i've got a couple listener questions

1061
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:22,240
everyone to stick around for those cool

1062
00:39:27,910 --> 00:39:24,640
i'll run right down the list here um

1063
00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:27,920
so mike c through email asks uh dr max

1064
00:39:31,109 --> 00:39:29,200
book abduction

1065
00:39:33,910 --> 00:39:31,119
uh mac painted a picture of something

1066
00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:33,920
far more transcendent than just little

1067
00:39:38,069 --> 00:39:36,160
scientists visiting earth and metal

1068
00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:38,079
flying saucers like we talked about

1069
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:40,640
did you feel any need to avoid or under

1070
00:39:46,150 --> 00:39:43,280
play the uh the strangeness

1071
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:46,160
of the personal accounts that uh dr mack

1072
00:39:50,150 --> 00:39:47,680
collected i know when i

1073
00:39:51,190 --> 00:39:50,160
first started interviewing witnesses and

1074
00:39:53,750 --> 00:39:51,200
experiencers

1075
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:53,760
i i would often tend to leave some of

1076
00:39:56,470 --> 00:39:55,520
the more weirder stuff out until i

1077
00:39:58,230 --> 00:39:56,480
realize

1078
00:40:00,230 --> 00:39:58,240
you're not doing a service to anyone by

1079
00:40:02,390 --> 00:40:00,240
doing that that's part of the data

1080
00:40:04,309 --> 00:40:02,400
that's part of the story so yeah what do

1081
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:04,319
you think anything like that

1082
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:06,880
that's a very good point that in a lot

1083
00:40:11,670 --> 00:40:09,119
of the accounts

1084
00:40:14,069 --> 00:40:11,680
uh the strangeness is is left out uh

1085
00:40:17,589 --> 00:40:14,079
because people are so eager to

1086
00:40:20,630 --> 00:40:17,599
uh preserve the core story the so-called

1087
00:40:22,309 --> 00:40:20,640
core narrative of alien abduction

1088
00:40:25,190 --> 00:40:22,319
they lose sight of all the things that

1089
00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:25,200
don't fit not everybody is subject to

1090
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:28,000
um reproductive you know experiments in

1091
00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:29,200
the spaceships

1092
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:30,960
uh whitney whitley streba is a perfect

1093
00:40:33,990 --> 00:40:32,880
example of very strange things he

1094
00:40:35,990 --> 00:40:34,000
encountered

1095
00:40:38,069 --> 00:40:36,000
um that had nothing to do with being

1096
00:40:41,190 --> 00:40:38,079
taken up in a spaceship

1097
00:40:43,270 --> 00:40:41,200
um and what what i'm glad this

1098
00:40:45,510 --> 00:40:43,280
uh caller brought up this point because

1099
00:40:47,349 --> 00:40:45,520
where mac really differs from hopkins

1100
00:40:50,309 --> 00:40:47,359
and jacobs probably the most

1101
00:40:51,910 --> 00:40:50,319
uh important difference is that he found

1102
00:40:53,510 --> 00:40:51,920
in the accounts he got from his

1103
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:53,520
experiencers

1104
00:40:57,829 --> 00:40:56,560
a transformative element in their lives

1105
00:41:01,829 --> 00:40:57,839
that they were

1106
00:41:03,589 --> 00:41:01,839
uh uh prized of the threat to the planet

1107
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:03,599
they became more environmentally

1108
00:41:07,270 --> 00:41:04,560
conscious

1109
00:41:07,910 --> 00:41:07,280
more spiritually inclined um they were

1110
00:41:10,309 --> 00:41:07,920
not just

1111
00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:10,319
traumatized and and many of them were

1112
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:12,800
not traumatized at all they felt

1113
00:41:17,030 --> 00:41:14,400
transcendent that they were connecting

1114
00:41:20,390 --> 00:41:17,040
to the source to god to some

1115
00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:20,400
you know great power um so this went

1116
00:41:23,349 --> 00:41:21,599
against the

1117
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:23,359
abduction narrative that you were taken

1118
00:41:27,910 --> 00:41:25,440
aboard by um

1119
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:27,920
you know evil little men and you know

1120
00:41:32,630 --> 00:41:30,480
subject to horrible experiments and

1121
00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:32,640
some of that you know was true that

1122
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:33,520
women came

1123
00:41:37,190 --> 00:41:35,359
particularly women who said they were

1124
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:37,200
forced to give up their babies and their

1125
00:41:40,230 --> 00:41:38,480
pregnancies were removed

1126
00:41:41,750 --> 00:41:40,240
which has never been scientifically

1127
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:41,760
proven um

1128
00:41:45,910 --> 00:41:44,160
but it's certainly what they they

1129
00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:45,920
reported

1130
00:41:48,950 --> 00:41:48,000
but max said yeah but there's another

1131
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:48,960
aspect to it

1132
00:41:52,230 --> 00:41:51,040
people who who felt transformed by the

1133
00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:52,240
experience who

1134
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:54,640
who whose eyes were opened up to the you

1135
00:41:58,390 --> 00:41:56,400
know the beauties of the universe and

1136
00:42:01,670 --> 00:41:58,400
the power of the universe

1137
00:42:04,309 --> 00:42:01,680
etc etc so um that was also an

1138
00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:04,319
aspect and i i i put that in the book i

1139
00:42:06,069 --> 00:42:05,760
didn't feel i had to leave that out at

1140
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:06,079
all

1141
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:07,680
i mean that was an important part of

1142
00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:09,520
mac's research and

1143
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:12,240
um and that is often lost really in the

1144
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:13,520
stories of

1145
00:42:17,829 --> 00:42:15,680
uh of alien abduction that you're right

1146
00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:17,839
that people stick to a core story

1147
00:42:21,349 --> 00:42:20,240
and um they lose sight of all the things

1148
00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:21,359
that don't fit

1149
00:42:26,069 --> 00:42:24,000
but the real scholars in the field say

1150
00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:26,079
those are even the most important things

1151
00:42:29,430 --> 00:42:27,839
the things that don't fit because why

1152
00:42:32,069 --> 00:42:29,440
don't they fit that's

1153
00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:32,079
right the answer to the mystery and i

1154
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:33,119
know we um

1155
00:42:36,710 --> 00:42:36,240
we glossed over the whole zimbabwe case

1156
00:42:42,470 --> 00:42:36,720
with

1157
00:42:45,190 --> 00:42:42,480
i'll probably put a couple clips in from

1158
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:45,200
those famous interviews matt did where

1159
00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:48,400
you know 60 something students children

1160
00:42:52,309 --> 00:42:50,800
uh had a close encounter with something

1161
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:52,319
and just like you said had

1162
00:42:56,550 --> 00:42:53,680
transformative

1163
00:42:58,069 --> 00:42:56,560
experiences it was scary myself it was

1164
00:43:03,910 --> 00:42:58,079
scary because you saw something

1165
00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:06,470
a little object hovering that was quite

1166
00:43:08,950 --> 00:43:07,280
big actually

1167
00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:08,960
and then there was little ones all

1168
00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:10,400
around it it was

1169
00:43:17,030 --> 00:43:15,119
silver and the ring around it was red

1170
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:17,040
the light come from the whole thing

1171
00:43:20,790 --> 00:43:18,240
there are lights around here

1172
00:43:23,109 --> 00:43:20,800
lights along the edge there how many of

1173
00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:23,119
the strange beans did you see

1174
00:43:27,190 --> 00:43:26,160
i saw one over here they they had eyes

1175
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:27,200
like that

1176
00:43:30,870 --> 00:43:29,760
and they were kind of just like looking

1177
00:43:33,670 --> 00:43:30,880
at us they were like

1178
00:43:35,510 --> 00:43:33,680
kind of astonished was he near the uh

1179
00:43:39,109 --> 00:43:35,520
the silver object or was he fought

1180
00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:39,119
on top on top of the silver object okay

1181
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:43,280
and um did you look at him

1182
00:43:47,030 --> 00:43:45,599
yes did he look at you he didn't give me

1183
00:43:47,589 --> 00:43:47,040
the crease then i told you maybe the

1184
00:43:49,109 --> 00:43:47,599
creeps

1185
00:43:50,710 --> 00:43:49,119
actually in your drawing you showed him

1186
00:43:52,829 --> 00:43:50,720
standing up didn't you yes i had to

1187
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:52,839
dream standing up was i couldn't room

1188
00:43:57,829 --> 00:43:55,200
city

1189
00:43:59,750 --> 00:43:57,839
i spoke to uh selma sadiq one of the

1190
00:44:00,550 --> 00:43:59,760
experiencers that was a child when that

1191
00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:00,560
happened

1192
00:44:06,950 --> 00:44:03,680
and now you know she's a uh

1193
00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:06,960
civil rights uh attorney i believe it is

1194
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:08,079
she she's done

1195
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:10,160
incredible things with her life that she

1196
00:44:13,349 --> 00:44:11,280
attributes

1197
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:13,359
to this thing that happened when she was

1198
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:14,560
a kid

1199
00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:16,160
tremendously and you know again what i

1200
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:18,000
said about the children these were

1201
00:44:21,270 --> 00:44:19,440
you know young kids i mean they weren't

1202
00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:21,280
two years old they were you know

1203
00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:23,680
eight and nine and ten but too young to

1204
00:44:26,710 --> 00:44:24,319
really

1205
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:26,720
make up stories you know to conform with

1206
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:28,400
movies they'd seen or so

1207
00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:30,240
so they were good witnesses in the sense

1208
00:44:34,790 --> 00:44:31,440
that they were pure

1209
00:44:36,870 --> 00:44:34,800
children and um um

1210
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:36,880
mac founded some of the most powerful

1211
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:37,920
evidence he had ever

1212
00:44:42,390 --> 00:44:40,960
uh encountered and he took videos of it

1213
00:44:43,109 --> 00:44:42,400
and the videos are on his you know

1214
00:44:46,390 --> 00:44:43,119
website

1215
00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:46,400
and uh i found it very persuasive i must

1216
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:46,720
say

1217
00:44:50,230 --> 00:44:48,400
i have some of the children's drawings

1218
00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:50,240
in my book um

1219
00:44:55,109 --> 00:44:53,040
and i think it people who are trying to

1220
00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:55,119
explain this phenomenon away

1221
00:44:58,710 --> 00:44:56,960
and say that it's crazy it couldn't

1222
00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:58,720
happen you know it's a

1223
00:45:02,230 --> 00:45:01,359
mental illness etc they have a very hard

1224
00:45:05,109 --> 00:45:02,240
time

1225
00:45:06,309 --> 00:45:05,119
dealing with the facts of that episode

1226
00:45:09,430 --> 00:45:06,319
the rua

1227
00:45:12,630 --> 00:45:09,440
zimbabwe you know uh episode because

1228
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:12,640
it does not fit anything that can easily

1229
00:45:17,670 --> 00:45:15,680
you know knock down exactly it's

1230
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,680
uh it's definitely a case everyone

1231
00:45:22,790 --> 00:45:19,440
should look into um

1232
00:45:24,550 --> 00:45:22,800
well kevin on twitter asks ralph um

1233
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:24,560
kind of playing into the abductees

1234
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:26,560
seeing how deeply traumatized

1235
00:45:29,990 --> 00:45:29,119
many of them were uh in your research

1236
00:45:32,470 --> 00:45:30,000
with mac

1237
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:32,480
did he feel that the truth was owed to

1238
00:45:35,270 --> 00:45:34,160
these abductees to learn what happened

1239
00:45:38,309 --> 00:45:35,280
to them or

1240
00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:38,319
should it just remain a mystery

1241
00:45:43,750 --> 00:45:41,200
well he was very insistent that they

1242
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:43,760
should at least be validated

1243
00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:47,440
that what happened to them is is worth

1244
00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:50,560
investigating um as he told the harvard

1245
00:45:54,069 --> 00:45:51,520
uh you know

1246
00:45:55,990 --> 00:45:54,079
committee he didn't tell people yeah you

1247
00:45:59,109 --> 00:45:56,000
were abducted by aliens

1248
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:59,119
um he never said it that way um but he

1249
00:46:02,069 --> 00:45:59,599
said

1250
00:46:02,870 --> 00:46:02,079
uh he felt they were owed a serious

1251
00:46:04,950 --> 00:46:02,880
study

1252
00:46:06,390 --> 00:46:04,960
and he didn't and other psychiatrists

1253
00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:06,400
who had treated some of these people

1254
00:46:11,109 --> 00:46:08,079
before they got to mac

1255
00:46:14,630 --> 00:46:11,119
did uh you know blow them off and say

1256
00:46:16,630 --> 00:46:14,640
um couldn't you know it's it's some

1257
00:46:18,950 --> 00:46:16,640
uh fantasy of yours it couldn't possibly

1258
00:46:21,109 --> 00:46:18,960
be true how could you can't believe this

1259
00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:21,119
and they left very unhappy because they

1260
00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:22,079
were really

1261
00:46:26,069 --> 00:46:25,440
puzzled because they knew they knew what

1262
00:46:28,630 --> 00:46:26,079
had happened

1263
00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:28,640
so these people somehow whatever

1264
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:30,880
happened to them on whatever level

1265
00:46:36,230 --> 00:46:34,319
they knew what had happened um

1266
00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:36,240
and when someone would would say to them

1267
00:46:38,950 --> 00:46:37,760
well that couldn't be true or that

1268
00:46:40,069 --> 00:46:38,960
couldn't have happened the way you

1269
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:40,079
remember it

1270
00:46:44,630 --> 00:46:42,079
there were all kinds of experiments uh

1271
00:46:45,430 --> 00:46:44,640
they did to try to implant memories to

1272
00:46:48,150 --> 00:46:45,440
see whether

1273
00:46:49,750 --> 00:46:48,160
people could make up you know uh

1274
00:46:52,870 --> 00:46:49,760
abduction scenarios

1275
00:46:56,710 --> 00:46:52,880
um um but uh

1276
00:47:00,470 --> 00:46:56,720
i think mac showed pretty conclusively

1277
00:47:03,670 --> 00:47:00,480
that these people had deep seated

1278
00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:03,680
memories actual memories of something

1279
00:47:08,069 --> 00:47:06,640
that happened to them on some level and

1280
00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:08,079
what level that was

1281
00:47:12,550 --> 00:47:10,640
is the mystery because it's not on an

1282
00:47:14,230 --> 00:47:12,560
everyday level because we don't see it

1283
00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:14,240
happening in the street all around us

1284
00:47:18,069 --> 00:47:17,040
obviously um when this had happened it

1285
00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:18,079
always happens

1286
00:47:21,829 --> 00:47:20,400
when other people are switched off or no

1287
00:47:24,150 --> 00:47:21,839
one else is around

1288
00:47:24,950 --> 00:47:24,160
or they're not it's not happening in a

1289
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:24,960
reality

1290
00:47:28,549 --> 00:47:26,720
where you catch it on film there's

1291
00:47:29,430 --> 00:47:28,559
videos of it everybody has a video

1292
00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:29,440
camera today

1293
00:47:32,549 --> 00:47:30,880
if people are getting abducted off the

1294
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:32,559
streets with ufos landing

1295
00:47:36,390 --> 00:47:35,280
someone have a video of it i mean come

1296
00:47:39,430 --> 00:47:36,400
on

1297
00:47:41,109 --> 00:47:39,440
uh but it doesn't happen that way so

1298
00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:41,119
something else is going on it's

1299
00:47:45,750 --> 00:47:42,800
happening on some

1300
00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:45,760
other level whatever it is that it

1301
00:47:54,069 --> 00:47:46,800
defies

1302
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:54,079
evidentiary you know procedures

1303
00:47:57,270 --> 00:47:56,880
um it's subtle it's subtle matt kept

1304
00:47:59,109 --> 00:47:57,280
saying

1305
00:48:01,030 --> 00:47:59,119
you know and whenever he was asked in

1306
00:48:02,790 --> 00:48:01,040
interviews or so

1307
00:48:04,790 --> 00:48:02,800
you know what is this thing that's gonna

1308
00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:04,800
it's subtle it's subtle we don't know we

1309
00:48:08,470 --> 00:48:06,000
don't understand

1310
00:48:10,470 --> 00:48:08,480
but that doesn't mean it's not real to

1311
00:48:14,069 --> 00:48:10,480
the people who encountered it

1312
00:48:16,710 --> 00:48:14,079
uh and very real to them yeah

1313
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:16,720
yeah and again you can see the empathy

1314
00:48:22,230 --> 00:48:18,720
with mac if these aren't just

1315
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:22,240
you know patience or uh you know numbers

1316
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:23,040
to him

1317
00:48:28,950 --> 00:48:26,240
these were actual people who he felt

1318
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:28,960
genuinely had some sort of either

1319
00:48:33,750 --> 00:48:29,760
mystical

1320
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:33,760
or consciousness experience or physical

1321
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:35,040
kidnapping

1322
00:48:39,589 --> 00:48:38,160
aboard a ship so yeah it's it's really

1323
00:48:40,549 --> 00:48:39,599
fascinating the entire abduction

1324
00:48:43,190 --> 00:48:40,559
phenomenon

1325
00:48:43,829 --> 00:48:43,200
i think we've really only scratched the

1326
00:48:46,630 --> 00:48:43,839
surface

1327
00:48:49,030 --> 00:48:46,640
of what it could possibly be ralph even

1328
00:48:50,870 --> 00:48:49,040
mac did as well but um

1329
00:48:52,790 --> 00:48:50,880
i have to thank you for writing this

1330
00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:52,800
book i think it was needed

1331
00:48:56,549 --> 00:48:55,440
and it was necessary for a name that is

1332
00:49:00,069 --> 00:48:56,559
so big

1333
00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:00,079
in the ufo field uh it never got

1334
00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:03,280
he never got you know i feel the credit

1335
00:49:06,870 --> 00:49:04,160
he deserves

1336
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:06,880
so um yeah this was the right time i

1337
00:49:12,069 --> 00:49:08,800
think for this book to come out

1338
00:49:15,109 --> 00:49:12,079
well took 16 years

1339
00:49:15,910 --> 00:49:15,119
wow there you go i mean i had a lot of

1340
00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:15,920
material to go

1341
00:49:19,589 --> 00:49:17,920
through it it was not an easy book to

1342
00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:19,599
write i've written books before

1343
00:49:22,710 --> 00:49:21,520
but this this was one of the toughest

1344
00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:22,720
because uh

1345
00:49:26,950 --> 00:49:24,880
just putting it fitting all these pieces

1346
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:26,960
together it was very complicated

1347
00:49:32,069 --> 00:49:30,079
and uh um and he was a complicated

1348
00:49:33,190 --> 00:49:32,079
guy i mean he was not a simple character

1349
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:33,200
he uh

1350
00:49:37,750 --> 00:49:35,680
they operate on many levels but i think

1351
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:37,760
you put your finger on it when you said

1352
00:49:42,390 --> 00:49:40,079
he had the empathy that allowed people

1353
00:49:44,150 --> 00:49:42,400
to come forward to him and whereas

1354
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:44,160
some of them had gone to other

1355
00:49:48,950 --> 00:49:46,640
therapists and psychiatrists before

1356
00:49:50,309 --> 00:49:48,960
and were you know were blown off or they

1357
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:50,319
didn't feel they got the proper

1358
00:49:54,790 --> 00:49:51,599
attention he

1359
00:49:55,589 --> 00:49:54,800
communicated that willingness to to hear

1360
00:49:59,030 --> 00:49:55,599
their story

1361
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:59,040
and to to fight for their their right to

1362
00:50:03,349 --> 00:49:59,839
be

1363
00:50:06,230 --> 00:50:03,359
heard uh to have their stories examined

1364
00:50:08,150 --> 00:50:06,240
um and that that took a lot of courage

1365
00:50:12,230 --> 00:50:08,160
to you know to be out there with them

1366
00:50:14,630 --> 00:50:12,240
and to be laughed at and um so

1367
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:14,640
that's why i do think he's he's a worthy

1368
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:15,359
um

1369
00:50:18,630 --> 00:50:17,680
you know someone to to follow and study

1370
00:50:21,109 --> 00:50:18,640
well i mean

1371
00:50:21,829 --> 00:50:21,119
yeah sometimes it's just someone there

1372
00:50:24,549 --> 00:50:21,839
to listen

1373
00:50:26,549 --> 00:50:24,559
and uh our last listener question ralph

1374
00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:26,559
this is the our most popular one

1375
00:50:30,790 --> 00:50:28,800
um if you're willing to discuss this at

1376
00:50:33,270 --> 00:50:30,800
all i'm just going to read this here

1377
00:50:34,870 --> 00:50:33,280
there's been rumors that uh the july

1378
00:50:37,589 --> 00:50:34,880
2020 article you co

1379
00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:37,599
wrote with leslie kane was edited down

1380
00:50:40,390 --> 00:50:38,800
drastically

1381
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:40,400
by the new york times i'll leave it to

1382
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:42,400
you to either uh

1383
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,960
say that's true or not um and that there

1384
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:46,559
was a lot more that you both wish to

1385
00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:48,400
cover are you willing to share

1386
00:50:52,870 --> 00:50:50,960
if that's true at all and anything you

1387
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:52,880
wish had made it into that one

1388
00:50:56,150 --> 00:50:55,599
uh the off-world vehicle as everyone has

1389
00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:56,160
called it

1390
00:50:59,430 --> 00:50:57,839
it's probably time to stop calling

1391
00:51:02,069 --> 00:50:59,440
people who believe in ufos

1392
00:51:02,630 --> 00:51:02,079
crackpots after the recent revelation

1393
00:51:05,109 --> 00:51:02,640
that there's

1394
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:05,119
actually a pentagon task force looking

1395
00:51:07,910 --> 00:51:06,000
into them

1396
00:51:11,109 --> 00:51:07,920
one astrophysicist who has worked for

1397
00:51:12,870 --> 00:51:11,119
the pentagon's ufo program since 2007

1398
00:51:14,549 --> 00:51:12,880
told the new york times that he gave a

1399
00:51:15,829 --> 00:51:14,559
classified briefing to a defense

1400
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:15,839
department agency

1401
00:51:19,270 --> 00:51:18,400
about retrievals from quote off-world

1402
00:51:22,069 --> 00:51:19,280
vehicles

1403
00:51:22,549 --> 00:51:22,079
not made on this earth are we on the

1404
00:51:24,950 --> 00:51:22,559
brink

1405
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:24,960
of full disclosure about visitors from

1406
00:51:28,549 --> 00:51:26,160
outer space

1407
00:51:30,630 --> 00:51:28,559
um well there was a lot of speculation

1408
00:51:31,190 --> 00:51:30,640
uh about that article before it ever

1409
00:51:33,990 --> 00:51:31,200
appeared

1410
00:51:35,589 --> 00:51:34,000
people knew exactly what we were doing

1411
00:51:36,069 --> 00:51:35,599
what we were reporting what we were

1412
00:51:37,990 --> 00:51:36,079
holding

1413
00:51:39,109 --> 00:51:38,000
back and they didn't have they didn't

1414
00:51:39,910 --> 00:51:39,119
know what they were talking about

1415
00:51:43,030 --> 00:51:39,920
because

1416
00:51:45,829 --> 00:51:43,040
you know they were not there um yeah

1417
00:51:47,829 --> 00:51:45,839
look uh i'm not gonna discuss you know

1418
00:51:50,790 --> 00:51:47,839
the backstage at the new york times

1419
00:51:51,829 --> 00:51:50,800
um and you know the editing process i'll

1420
00:51:54,790 --> 00:51:51,839
say that

1421
00:51:57,670 --> 00:51:54,800
um this was a very difficult story to

1422
00:52:00,870 --> 00:51:57,680
report it was a story on materials

1423
00:52:04,069 --> 00:52:00,880
um and you know to what extent

1424
00:52:07,270 --> 00:52:04,079
uh material may have been recovered from

1425
00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:07,280
crashes or retrieved you know objects

1426
00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:10,720
it required a lot of

1427
00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:14,000
backup and reporting as often happens

1428
00:52:16,870 --> 00:52:15,680
with difficult subjects a lot of

1429
00:52:21,030 --> 00:52:16,880
material

1430
00:52:23,349 --> 00:52:21,040
um that is uh gathered by reporters

1431
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:23,359
is gone over by editors and it's

1432
00:52:26,790 --> 00:52:24,880
winnowed and

1433
00:52:28,549 --> 00:52:26,800
you know editors and reporters together

1434
00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:28,559
decide what is

1435
00:52:32,390 --> 00:52:30,480
worthy of reporting what can be backed

1436
00:52:36,549 --> 00:52:32,400
up

1437
00:52:37,750 --> 00:52:36,559
so um it moved the needle

1438
00:52:40,069 --> 00:52:37,760
it may not have been everything

1439
00:52:41,670 --> 00:52:40,079
everybody wanted to hear but it you know

1440
00:52:43,109 --> 00:52:41,680
it was what the new york times could

1441
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:43,119
could back up and

1442
00:52:48,870 --> 00:52:46,880
um i'm i'm happy with it i think there's

1443
00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:48,880
room for more reporting certainly leslie

1444
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:50,720
and i are continuing to

1445
00:52:54,549 --> 00:52:52,720
you know poke around and to see what

1446
00:52:55,349 --> 00:52:54,559
else we can do to move the story forward

1447
00:52:59,030 --> 00:52:55,359
there's a lot to be

1448
00:53:01,589 --> 00:52:59,040
said still it's not the end um

1449
00:53:02,309 --> 00:53:01,599
but um you know that's all i'll say

1450
00:53:05,670 --> 00:53:02,319
about that

1451
00:53:07,589 --> 00:53:05,680
you know uh there was a lot of internet

1452
00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:07,599
chatter about that story which made our

1453
00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:08,960
lives difficult

1454
00:53:12,230 --> 00:53:11,359
because every time we call somebody you

1455
00:53:13,829 --> 00:53:12,240
know

1456
00:53:15,829 --> 00:53:13,839
the word was already out that we were

1457
00:53:17,589 --> 00:53:15,839
working on this and um

1458
00:53:19,829 --> 00:53:17,599
so that didn't make it easy and i

1459
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:19,839
actually said that and afterwards i said

1460
00:53:22,470 --> 00:53:21,280
that people made our lives more

1461
00:53:25,030 --> 00:53:22,480
difficult because

1462
00:53:25,510 --> 00:53:25,040
of the gossip but it's it's a difficult

1463
00:53:28,309 --> 00:53:25,520
field

1464
00:53:29,829 --> 00:53:28,319
and it has to be handled in a way that

1465
00:53:33,270 --> 00:53:29,839
is responsible

1466
00:53:35,510 --> 00:53:33,280
and uh you know with proper sourcing and

1467
00:53:37,109 --> 00:53:35,520
you can't just put in everything you you

1468
00:53:39,910 --> 00:53:37,119
feel or think you know

1469
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:39,920
until you can you know can establish it

1470
00:53:42,950 --> 00:53:40,880
verify it

1471
00:53:44,870 --> 00:53:42,960
so some things are easy to report

1472
00:53:48,230 --> 00:53:44,880
another the first story was

1473
00:53:51,349 --> 00:53:48,240
probably easier um than

1474
00:53:53,270 --> 00:53:51,359
stuff that that is coming out now so

1475
00:53:55,190 --> 00:53:53,280
that's that's all i'll say about that

1476
00:53:56,950 --> 00:53:55,200
i'm happy to hear that like you said

1477
00:53:59,910 --> 00:53:56,960
this isn't the end of the story this is

1478
00:54:00,950 --> 00:53:59,920
a subtle thing it's a developing story

1479
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:00,960
as it always

1480
00:54:05,829 --> 00:54:04,160
is so um that's exciting and also your

1481
00:54:07,270 --> 00:54:05,839
most recent article we gotta touch on

1482
00:54:07,829 --> 00:54:07,280
this right before we go if you don't

1483
00:54:10,790 --> 00:54:07,839
mind

1484
00:54:12,549 --> 00:54:10,800
um your article about robert bigelow in

1485
00:54:14,470 --> 00:54:12,559
his formation of the uh

1486
00:54:15,589 --> 00:54:14,480
the bigelow institute for consciousness

1487
00:54:17,829 --> 00:54:15,599
studies um

1488
00:54:19,670 --> 00:54:17,839
anything share about that one well

1489
00:54:24,309 --> 00:54:19,680
robert bigelow was one of the

1490
00:54:26,309 --> 00:54:24,319
um supporters of john mack um he

1491
00:54:28,069 --> 00:54:26,319
financed a poll that became you know

1492
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:28,079
very uh

1493
00:54:32,870 --> 00:54:30,960
central to the study of abduction

1494
00:54:34,870 --> 00:54:32,880
experiences to try to figure out how

1495
00:54:36,549 --> 00:54:34,880
many people have been abducted

1496
00:54:37,990 --> 00:54:36,559
and this is a very difficult thing to

1497
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:38,000
establish because you can't just ask

1498
00:54:41,430 --> 00:54:39,599
people have you ever been abducted

1499
00:54:43,670 --> 00:54:41,440
you have to find some trigger

1500
00:54:47,349 --> 00:54:43,680
experiences that might indicate that so

1501
00:54:50,349 --> 00:54:47,359
anyway bigelow financed that um

1502
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:50,359
he's been very uh out front with

1503
00:54:54,230 --> 00:54:51,520
financing

1504
00:54:56,390 --> 00:54:54,240
um research into paranormal experiences

1505
00:54:59,510 --> 00:54:56,400
you know he bought skinwalker ranch

1506
00:54:59,910 --> 00:54:59,520
which is it was was uh is still a hotbed

1507
00:55:02,230 --> 00:54:59,920
of

1508
00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:02,240
very strange things it was a movie and a

1509
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:03,200
book about it

1510
00:55:10,549 --> 00:55:07,520
george knapp did a wonderful uh book and

1511
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:10,559
uh study of what was going on there um

1512
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:13,119
so bigelow again has got to be commended

1513
00:55:17,670 --> 00:55:15,839
he's a scientist he's got you know uh

1514
00:55:19,349 --> 00:55:17,680
a uh module attached to the

1515
00:55:22,630 --> 00:55:19,359
international space station

1516
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:22,640
he's you know he's very solidly

1517
00:55:29,270 --> 00:55:26,000
founded you know founded in um

1518
00:55:30,230 --> 00:55:29,280
in science and research um but he's got

1519
00:55:33,430 --> 00:55:30,240
an interest in

1520
00:55:35,270 --> 00:55:33,440
in in the paranormal and

1521
00:55:36,789 --> 00:55:35,280
now he's interested in what happens

1522
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:36,799
after death and mac was interested in

1523
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:39,280
that too that was his last uh

1524
00:55:42,549 --> 00:55:41,680
project really life after death you know

1525
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:42,559
what happens and

1526
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:44,640
as i say at the end of the book there's

1527
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:46,640
some experiences people reported that

1528
00:55:49,349 --> 00:55:48,400
they thought he came back to them after

1529
00:55:51,190 --> 00:55:49,359
he died

1530
00:55:53,349 --> 00:55:51,200
and i said look i'm not vouching for

1531
00:55:54,710 --> 00:55:53,359
that in the book but

1532
00:55:57,349 --> 00:55:54,720
these are stories that people are

1533
00:55:59,510 --> 00:55:57,359
telling um and i think it's it's kind of

1534
00:56:02,069 --> 00:55:59,520
interesting that

1535
00:56:04,470 --> 00:56:02,079
it became part of the mythology of john

1536
00:56:07,020 --> 00:56:04,480
mack that he reappeared afterwards

1537
00:56:08,230 --> 00:56:07,030
uh to various people who you know

1538
00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:08,240
[Music]

1539
00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:10,640
were dealing with mediums and seances

1540
00:56:14,309 --> 00:56:11,520
and stuff

1541
00:56:14,710 --> 00:56:14,319
um but so bigelow is interested in that

1542
00:56:18,150 --> 00:56:14,720
and

1543
00:56:19,190 --> 00:56:18,160
uh you know near-death experiences are a

1544
00:56:22,309 --> 00:56:19,200
well-known

1545
00:56:26,230 --> 00:56:22,319
um phenomenon um

1546
00:56:28,150 --> 00:56:26,240
it's not just you know science fiction

1547
00:56:29,589 --> 00:56:28,160
it's real that people have encountered

1548
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:29,599
strange things

1549
00:56:36,390 --> 00:56:34,000
as they physically actually died

1550
00:56:37,510 --> 00:56:36,400
and then they were able to come back uh

1551
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:37,520
leslie kane's

1552
00:56:43,990 --> 00:56:40,960
series now on netflix um

1553
00:56:46,470 --> 00:56:44,000
you know surviving death points that out

1554
00:56:47,430 --> 00:56:46,480
so uh you know i said somewhere the

1555
00:56:49,750 --> 00:56:47,440
other day that

1556
00:56:51,510 --> 00:56:49,760
john mack had two billionaires

1557
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:51,520
supporting him he not only had robert

1558
00:56:56,150 --> 00:56:52,240
bigelow

1559
00:56:58,789 --> 00:56:56,160
he had lawrence rockefeller who was very

1560
00:57:00,470 --> 00:56:58,799
eminent and very supportive and lawrence

1561
00:57:03,190 --> 00:57:00,480
rockefeller gave a lot of money

1562
00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:03,200
uh for his uh you know research and uh

1563
00:57:06,309 --> 00:57:04,160
lawrence arkham was

1564
00:57:08,710 --> 00:57:06,319
again very brave for a member of the

1565
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:08,720
rockefeller family to support

1566
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:12,160
research in you know ufos alien

1567
00:57:16,069 --> 00:57:12,799
abduction

1568
00:57:17,829 --> 00:57:16,079
uh very courageous um

1569
00:57:19,589 --> 00:57:17,839
and uh he was also involved in

1570
00:57:20,390 --> 00:57:19,599
conservation and a lot of other things

1571
00:57:23,510 --> 00:57:20,400
but he

1572
00:57:24,829 --> 00:57:23,520
he gave a lot of his money to research

1573
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:24,839
into strange areas

1574
00:57:32,390 --> 00:57:27,760
and so i said john mack had two

1575
00:57:36,309 --> 00:57:35,190
oh you've right a boy can dream right

1576
00:57:40,470 --> 00:57:36,319
maybe someday

1577
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:40,480
but uh but he attracted that support uh

1578
00:57:45,670 --> 00:57:43,770
people and he you know he um um

1579
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:45,680
[Music]

1580
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:47,440
people reached out to him because they

1581
00:57:52,870 --> 00:57:49,920
trusted him

1582
00:57:54,390 --> 00:57:52,880
yeah yep absolutely and i think the work

1583
00:57:56,390 --> 00:57:54,400
speaks for itself he

1584
00:57:57,430 --> 00:57:56,400
he clearly not only had a passion like

1585
00:58:00,549 --> 00:57:57,440
you have in your

1586
00:58:02,549 --> 00:58:00,559
your subtitle but he had a uh an

1587
00:58:04,710 --> 00:58:02,559
understanding and a care for these

1588
00:58:06,069 --> 00:58:04,720
people who were going through this again

1589
00:58:10,470 --> 00:58:06,079
i always say

1590
00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:10,480
this topic these issues with uap ufos

1591
00:58:14,390 --> 00:58:13,280
alien abductions they say more about us

1592
00:58:16,390 --> 00:58:14,400
than i think they

1593
00:58:17,510 --> 00:58:16,400
say about the phenomena itself or what

1594
00:58:20,069 --> 00:58:17,520
we're dealing with

1595
00:58:21,990 --> 00:58:20,079
that mirror seems to always come back to

1596
00:58:25,109 --> 00:58:22,000
us as human beings and uh

1597
00:58:27,109 --> 00:58:25,119
how we perceive it so i i i

1598
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:27,119
i really do think that mac was on to

1599
00:58:30,470 --> 00:58:29,440
something and now it's up to the next

1600
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:30,480
generation

1601
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:33,040
to build off of that and they now have

1602
00:58:36,390 --> 00:58:34,880
this amazing book to do that but of

1603
00:58:37,589 --> 00:58:36,400
course the most important question ralph

1604
00:58:39,510 --> 00:58:37,599
before we go

1605
00:58:41,030 --> 00:58:39,520
where can we find the book and where can

1606
00:58:43,030 --> 00:58:41,040
we find everything you're up to

1607
00:58:44,230 --> 00:58:43,040
well it's uh officially being published

1608
00:58:46,230 --> 00:58:44,240
march 15th

1609
00:58:48,069 --> 00:58:46,240
but it's already making its way out

1610
00:58:48,630 --> 00:58:48,079
amazon has it bonds and nobles taking

1611
00:58:50,150 --> 00:58:48,640
orders

1612
00:58:51,910 --> 00:58:50,160
bookstores we're going to be making

1613
00:58:52,630 --> 00:58:51,920
appearances at bookstores leslie kane

1614
00:58:54,390 --> 00:58:52,640
and i

1615
00:58:56,390 --> 00:58:54,400
are doing a virtu everything is virtual

1616
00:58:58,309 --> 00:58:56,400
today so it's a virtual appearance

1617
00:59:00,069 --> 00:58:58,319
at shakespeare and company on lexington

1618
00:59:01,190 --> 00:59:00,079
avenue in manhattan so they'll have the

1619
00:59:04,150 --> 00:59:01,200
book stocked

1620
00:59:05,109 --> 00:59:04,160
so um dan aykroyd by the way who gave me

1621
00:59:06,630 --> 00:59:05,119
a nice blurb

1622
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:06,640
he and i had doing an event at a

1623
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:08,240
bookstore in l.a

1624
00:59:14,630 --> 00:59:11,920
on st patrick's day um dan aykroyd is a

1625
00:59:16,549 --> 00:59:14,640
uh he wrote a book he actually wrote the

1626
00:59:17,349 --> 00:59:16,559
forward to his grandfather's book about

1627
00:59:20,150 --> 00:59:17,359
ghosts

1628
00:59:20,870 --> 00:59:20,160
so he doesn't just do busting he

1629
00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:20,880
actually

1630
00:59:26,710 --> 00:59:23,920
his family

1631
00:59:27,190 --> 00:59:26,720
um and he was very supportive of my book

1632
00:59:31,109 --> 00:59:27,200
and

1633
00:59:33,109 --> 00:59:31,119
event but the book

1634
00:59:34,549 --> 00:59:33,119
it's easy to find out if the stores

1635
00:59:35,349 --> 00:59:34,559
don't have it already they're shipping

1636
00:59:43,910 --> 00:59:35,359
it

1637
00:59:47,510 --> 00:59:43,920
instantly for people who can't

1638
00:59:50,950 --> 00:59:47,520
possibly wait to have it uh you know

1639
00:59:53,430 --> 00:59:50,960
access it so um um

1640
00:59:54,630 --> 00:59:53,440
it's it's available already awesome and

1641
00:59:56,789 --> 00:59:54,640
again you know

1642
00:59:58,470 --> 00:59:56,799
you're the guy who's tackled everything

1643
01:00:01,990 --> 00:59:58,480
from the mafia

1644
01:00:03,030 --> 01:00:02,000
to uh nazi war criminals and everything

1645
01:00:05,670 --> 01:00:03,040
in between

1646
01:00:07,990 --> 01:00:05,680
and now you have abductions on that list

1647
01:00:08,710 --> 01:00:08,000
ralph and um i think it's awesome man so

1648
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:08,720
again

1649
01:00:12,230 --> 01:00:10,319
thank you for the book and thank you for

1650
01:00:13,270 --> 01:00:12,240
coming on the show today thank you ryan

1651
01:00:20,890 --> 01:00:13,280
real pleasure

1652
01:00:20,900 --> 01:00:40,829
[Music]